17.11.2018 • 1 Std. 1 Min.

The tug of war between how the genre advertises itself and how it’s actually evolving is growing more tense. Guests: Nick Murray; Natalie Weiner. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.